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Discussion Starter #1
What...The...Fuck...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTkOgWx_bTc&feature=player_embedded

No selector manipulations? Even our T1 operators manipulate their selectors for safety. I guess these guys are above that though. Not to mention the continual muzzling of each other, shitty recoil management, pistol transitions ending with both in master grip, instead of properly retaining secondary (or even tac reloading of it). Eyes down on the reloads, improper gear stowage (lucky it was lanyarded)

@.21 sec Why are you shooting from the hip Van Damme?

@.24 sec Why the "back to the enemy" reloads? Are they simulating cover? If so, WHY DO YOU STILL HAVE YOUR FUCKING BACK TO THE ENEMY???

@.40 sec See where goofy as fuck acrobatics get you? On an unstable shooting platform THAT'S WHERE!

@1:11 Hey guy on the left, fuck that shoulder stock. Not needed. See guy on the right at 21sec for confirmation.

@1:25 Guy on the left, 9 second reload? Really?

@1:37 Good job guys. The only thing mising are the Christmas trees. Mel would be proud unless either of you are Jewish.

@2:06 Why are you looking at your gear? Why don't you know where your mags are? Why are you fucking this up?

@2:26 Look at those precision shots! Excellent recoil mitigation. See? Fuck those stocks and cheekwelds.

@2:56 Nice pistol transition. Good thing you caught them on their lunch break. Also, again stellar recoil mitigation on that .600 Nitro Express Makarov!

@3:17 Maybe "I'm up, he sees me, I'm down" translates into a much longer sentence in Russian.

@3:35 Thank GOD his Walkman still had his headphones plugged in. Almost lost THAT, and his 1997 Top 40 mix tape.

I'll say this again, after working with former Eastern Bloc SOF, there's a reason why they went away from Soviet doctrine.
 

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prob rookies russkies
 

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lol reminds me of figure skating for some reason. Those rolls look gay as hell.
 

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spetsnazgx3.jpg ......................
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Even if they were rookies, they're still doing what they're trained to do. If they were doing them wrong, I'm sure they'd be getting yelled at for it.
 

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I heard they're just training for a part as an extra in an action movie.......sorry just starting a rumor. But I know I can't roll like that.
 

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Well.. it obviously works just look at how feared the spetnaz are, and what they have been able to accomplish.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Being ruthless, and sound TTP's are two totally different things.

I'll say it again, there's a reason why a lot of former Soviet Bloc countries don't train that way anymore. The Sovs can continue to train that way as much as they like. It provides amusing Youtube vids.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Interestingly enough, I had made a comment to my bro-in-law about the differences that I've seen between the Teams, and some foreign SOF. He said, "It's not that we're so good, it's just we don't suck nearly as bad as them."

I thought that was hilarious.
 

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how many of you have the knowledge to identify what they are doing right?
how much of that drill can you identify the purpose of?
what is the mindset behind the techniques?

I submit that if you dont know what you are looking at, or the purpose of the drill, that your critique of the drill might be best withheld a bit longer.


(not so) random musing:
why DO people obsessively manipulate thier safeties when shooting anyway? doesnt that take the gun out of the fight? Does that make me "team" worthy?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Welcome to this forum Jack-O.

I know you are a huge fan of Sonny, Gabe and Marco and their training doctrine. Good for you. I however am NOT a huge fan and have expressed this before.

Here are my problems with this: These are opinions gathered from my experience as an Ordnance Tech (NOT A SEAL) for the Teams. That has allowed me to train with these guys in shooting, breaching, room CQB/CQC, tactical driving, and numerous FID missions with foreign as well as our SOF on our deployments. Some of these countries being former Eastern Bloc countries.

They do things WAYYYYY differently than American SOF. Our guys teach to optimally shoot from a solid platform whether it's standing, kneeling, prone, SBU prone, whatever it may be. That being said, you DON'T compromise your shooting position unless forced to.

The purpose of that drill actually seems pretty self explanatory to me. If you're seeing something different, please enlighten us. ( Really, I would like to know what I am not seeing). Shooting from different positions. Covering each direction of attack while staying low. Covering each other while performing an emergency reload. Providing support when assaulting a target. Breaking contact and providing covering fire. Pistol transtitions. That's off the top of my head without having seen it for over a week if I'm missing something.

I can tell you the Lith's SOF, Croat's SOF, Romanian's SOF, and Polish GROM do NOT do any of that anymore. At least they didn't do any of that while doing ANY range training with us.

This isn't just my opinion. I have shown these videos to the guys to see if there was merit in these techniques. Every time, I get laughing, and head shaking. Every time.

Hey, if it works for them, have it it. If you want to train this way, feel free. This is America and we are free to train however we want.

As far as the manipulating the selector question, I know the AK's selector is nowhere near as easy as the M4/AR series. As easy as the M4's is to manipulate, there's NO reason NOT to. Why would it take the gun out of the fight? Unless you can only do 1 thing at a time, maybe. As soon as that gun is being brought on target, that selector should already be off. Does that make the Team worthy? Now you're questioning T1 level guys who do this on a constant basis as easily as breathing. Violate the selector/trigger finger rule in selection, and see where that gets you.
 

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''Violate the selector/trigger finger rule in selection, and see where that gets you. ''


im sure it aint pleasant

i like some of Sonny P videos,have never gotten into his teachings extensivley,just seen smoe clips of him training with his 47.

who would you recc. for a good 3 gun training course?wanna take a few soon.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Brother I can't lie. I have no idea who to recommend for that. How much experience do you have?

Pending that, I would go to the appropriate classes (for your experience level) just to get your drills down, familiarity with gear, (ultimately you want to find and utilize a set-up that allows you to go off feel and not have to look at your gear and take your focus off the threat), malfunction clearance drills, transitions. This is for pistol, rifle and shotgun.

This should let you feel a little a better about knowing your gear, then go to a 3 gun shoot and compete.

Either that, or get thrown to the wolves right off the bat, and jump in feet first. It'll be a learning experience for sure, but you'll have fun.
 

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i think this would be good for a sticky,perhaps a training section of the forum where everyone could post reccomendations or non recc. of various training classes they have attended or would recc.
i for one am always looking to improve.id say im at an intermediate level.but there is so much to learn even at a basic level for most.id like to take some classess on the things youd mentioned above.i have no intention of being a ninja,but more of a well rounded solid shooter with a pistol,sgun and rifle.more cqb,thats what interests me.
 

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who would you recc. for a good 3 gun training course?wanna take a few soon.
Are you looking to try 3Gun or get better at 3Gun?
 

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Sonny P, Vasiliev, Vorobiev are all good guys but none of them teach this stuff like this. I dont pretend to know what these guys are doing, but do see a few things that may make some sense. to me it looked like a drill incorporating movement based on a predefined set of "if this happens then do this" type scenarios all rolled up into one "kata" meant for show. Is it useful? dunno, but any time you can move and shoot safely it's a good thing and fluid movement is even better. It looks to me as if it were a final drill from a class and the instructor is yelling out commands for the students to respond to with the drills they learned. I see some mistakes, sure, but thats what every class I've ever been to looks like... a learning experience.


the american insistance on total muzzle control and obsessive compulsive safety activation is a function of poor systemic training, big army bureaucratic paranoia, and lack of trust in the individual. The implication that if you violate ONE of the THREE safety rules that you will kill someone is silly and unfounded. in fact only one of the three need be in effect and even then it is still the operators option to pull the trigger.

The problem with strict adherence to safety rules is that it encourages overdependance on PROCEDURE instead of providing them with real training and forcing them to engage the only real safety device they have...THIER BRAIN.

and That's what I have a problem with.
 
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