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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I posted earlier in General Firearms about CCW and it got me thinking about home defense.

Do you use your ACR as your home defense gun? If not, what is by your bedside?
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I still haven't figured out a way to keep my ACR by my bed. I have two small children and I can't exactly have loaded firearms laying around.

I have a Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm fullsize with Arredondo extended base pads and a Surefire X300 in a quick Gunvault Safe.
 

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I have a Beretta 92FS for home defense, took it to Pocono Pistol Club in PA yesterday to spend some quality time with it and even though I am a novice I was on target (7" groups) at 50' with it.

That being said, if it became "Night Of The Living Dead" time, I would have my ACR out in the blink of an eye.
 

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I dont use an ACR for home defense. Remington 870 and Glock 37 are my choices right now. Both very effective at the usual home defense ranges.
 

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i use the acr or usp for home defense, whichever i grab first... the acr has an attached light, which means i dont fumble around for the surefire light with the usp-with my luck the light would roll off of the nightstand
 

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I have a Colt Double Eagle .45 and a S&W .500 revolver for home defense. My ACR is kept in the case, and use for competitive shooting.
 

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I have various handgun around to get to my benelli M2 semi auto, if you can't handle the situation with a shotgun you got a massive home invasion happening. The long answer to the question is NO...ACR...AR15 not my first choice for home defense.
 

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I have a Beretta 92FS for home defense, took it to Pocono Pistol Club in PA yesterday to spend some quality time with it and even though I am a novice I was on target (7" groups) at 50' with it.

That being said, if it became "Night Of The Living Dead" time, I would have my ACR out in the blink of an eye.
How did you like the indoor range...nice right?
 

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Two cents... times a lot:

I would be very careful about using a rifle for home defense. Any round but buckshot will penetrate drywall, and a rifle may penetrate your target AND drywall, several times over. In a complex three-dimensional environment like a home, where any direction of fire may potentially lead to a friendly (read: your kids), this is a concern. At least with a pistol round, if you do not shoot liabilities (clean misses), your bullet is unlikely to penetrate both your target and the wall behind him with enough remaining force to present a deadly threat to the person beyond. All of that said, ultimate responsibility is always on you to know your line of fire, foreground and background, and maneuver to minimize the threat posed by misses and over-penetration, and then to train sufficiently that you don't frickin' miss. I would say that if you don't want to use a short shotgun, my next best thing would be the semi-auto versions of some of the SMGs out there. Pistol caliber, huge magazine, shoots as a shoulder-mounted weapon with low recoil (most of them, anyway), and has room for optics and lights. Good size for ladies, too, if you share the weapon with your spouse, and she doesn't have to fight the recoil of a handgun.

Handguns have the advantage of fitting into more bedside storage options, like quick-access safes. For handgun options, remember who might have to use it. If it's just going to be you, then a big pistol like the USP might be perfect, with weapon light and so forth. If it's shared between you and your spouse, consider her hand size and recoil-management ability. Like BigDog said, a weaponlight means you get two of your nightstand items (gun, light, cell phone) in one.

If you do choose a shotgun, remember that it is not a spread-weapon. At indoor ranges, its pattern is not going to be much bigger than a dinner plate even with a wide-open choke. You still have to aim. Red-dots and weapon-lights are probably good ideas. Again, remember who's going to have to shoot it. Also consider its length. A full length sport shotgun, in addition to having no accessory rails, is unwieldy in tight confines. Remember your indoor-tactics training? How if you're going around a corner to the left, you're supposed to be as far over to the right as possible so you can lean out, slice the pie (lean out and check one small segment of the next room at a time, shuffle-step by shuffle-step), and not be at risk of someone grabbing your muzzle if he's hiding just around the corner? Consider how the length of a sport shotgun affects this technique in your home. Shorties and bullpups interest the tactical folks for a reason.

If you do go with a rifle, like your ACR, you have the advantages of a shoulder-fired, low-recoil, accurate, and maximumly (Is that a word?) lethal weapon with room for weapon light and night-optics. You also have the risks presented by a much, much faster bullet. Don't shoot military ball ammo, which is designed to penetrate rather than kill. Shoot hunting rounds, which are designed to expand in flesh and disable prey. Off the top of my head, I would say that the .300 BLK subsonic loads with hollowpoint bullets would be pretty near ideal. As far as storage goes, you can use a rifle as a home defense gun if you can use a shotgun, and probably easier, if you have an SBR with a folding stock. You are only limited by your imagination in terms of creating a custom quick-access secure storage system for it.

If you have the option, get a silencer on any home defense gun. Be aware of its added length for tactics and gun behavior, but generally it can only benefit you. It won't increase the length or weight of an SMG or SBR enough to cause problems in close quarters. It will mitigate recoil in a handgun (just don't weigh down your tiny female spouse with a giant can that's going to affect her accuracy). And, as those of you know who have fired a gun inside a tube (which a hallway essentially is), there is nothing quite like the feeling of your gun's concussion coming back at you from all directions at once. Even through hearing protection, your hearing is done, and you may be quite stunned if you've never trained for it. You think an indoor range is bad... Remember, you'll be in the dark, in an enclosed space, in a complex, three-dimensional shooting environment full of friendlies, with night-adjusted eyes, silence-adjusted ears, and no protection, and you'll be freaking out because someone's trying to hurt your children. The first shot out of your weapon will go a long way to blinding, deafening, and disorienting you, just when you need your faculties most in order to put follow-up shots on badguys without endangering your family and neighbors. A silencer is nigh indispensable in that situation.

My current home defense nightstand kit is my carry gun (USP Compact .45) + AAC Evo .45, Surefire E2D LED Defender, and cell phone. If, like me, you are a nomad who demands the maximum versatility from the fewest weapons, then you're salivating over the idea of an ACR in .300 BLK, SBR, SD, as your defensive long gun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Holy crap. I feel like I just watched a part of Magpul Dynamics. Nice post! Your right, I do find myself salivating over a .300 BLK ACR. Thank you for that insight.
 

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MAGPUL D, BABY! They's awesome. You know how to pick out good data, right? Look for overlap between multiple competing teachers. What people who are competing with each other agree on has a very high likelihood of being true. Also, we're all professionals here. We have brains, and can see a truth, generally, as such. I love Magpul Dynamics, though, because they've got style. Their videos aren't just a guy talking to a camera. They've got lots of cameras, lots of post production. There's an art to film-making, and they use it to present good material in a compelling way. That's God's own work, far as I'm concerned. They'll continue to get my money.
 

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Two cents... times a lot:

I would be very careful about using a rifle for home defense. Any round but buckshot will penetrate drywall, and a rifle may penetrate your target AND drywall, several times over. In a complex three-dimensional environment like a home, where any direction of fire may potentially lead to a friendly (read: your kids), this is a concern. At least with a pistol round, if you do not shoot liabilities (clean misses), your bullet is unlikely to penetrate both your target and the wall behind him with enough remaining force to present a deadly threat to the person beyond. All of that said, ultimate responsibility is always on you to know your line of fire, foreground and background, and maneuver to minimize the threat posed by misses and over-penetration, and then to train sufficiently that you don't frickin' miss. I would say that if you don't want to use a short shotgun, my next best thing would be the semi-auto versions of some of the SMGs out there. Pistol caliber, huge magazine, shoots as a shoulder-mounted weapon with low recoil (most of them, anyway), and has room for optics and lights. Good size for ladies, too, if you share the weapon with your spouse, and she doesn't have to fight the recoil of a handgun.

Handguns have the advantage of fitting into more bedside storage options, like quick-access safes. For handgun options, remember who might have to use it. If it's just going to be you, then a big pistol like the USP might be perfect, with weapon light and so forth. If it's shared between you and your spouse, consider her hand size and recoil-management ability. Like BigDog said, a weaponlight means you get two of your nightstand items (gun, light, cell phone) in one.

If you do choose a shotgun, remember that it is not a spread-weapon. At indoor ranges, its pattern is not going to be much bigger than a dinner plate even with a wide-open choke. You still have to aim. Red-dots and weapon-lights are probably good ideas. Again, remember who's going to have to shoot it. Also consider its length. A full length sport shotgun, in addition to having no accessory rails, is unwieldy in tight confines. Remember your indoor-tactics training? How if you're going around a corner to the left, you're supposed to be as far over to the right as possible so you can lean out, slice the pie (lean out and check one small segment of the next room at a time, shuffle-step by shuffle-step), and not be at risk of someone grabbing your muzzle if he's hiding just around the corner? Consider how the length of a sport shotgun affects this technique in your home. Shorties and bullpups interest the tactical folks for a reason.

If you do go with a rifle, like your ACR, you have the advantages of a shoulder-fired, low-recoil, accurate, and maximumly (Is that a word?) lethal weapon with room for weapon light and night-optics. You also have the risks presented by a much, much faster bullet. Don't shoot military ball ammo, which is designed to penetrate rather than kill. Shoot hunting rounds, which are designed to expand in flesh and disable prey. Off the top of my head, I would say that the .300 BLK subsonic loads with hollowpoint bullets would be pretty near ideal. As far as storage goes, you can use a rifle as a home defense gun if you can use a shotgun, and probably easier, if you have an SBR with a folding stock. You are only limited by your imagination in terms of creating a custom quick-access secure storage system for it.

If you have the option, get a silencer on any home defense gun. Be aware of its added length for tactics and gun behavior, but generally it can only benefit you. It won't increase the length or weight of an SMG or SBR enough to cause problems in close quarters. It will mitigate recoil in a handgun (just don't weigh down your tiny female spouse with a giant can that's going to affect her accuracy). And, as those of you know who have fired a gun inside a tube (which a hallway essentially is), there is nothing quite like the feeling of your gun's concussion coming back at you from all directions at once. Even through hearing protection, your hearing is done, and you may be quite stunned if you've never trained for it. You think an indoor range is bad... Remember, you'll be in the dark, in an enclosed space, in a complex, three-dimensional shooting environment full of friendlies, with night-adjusted eyes, silence-adjusted ears, and no protection, and you'll be freaking out because someone's trying to hurt your children. The first shot out of your weapon will go a long way to blinding, deafening, and disorienting you, just when you need your faculties most in order to put follow-up shots on badguys without endangering your family and neighbors. A silencer is nigh indispensable in that situation.

My current home defense nightstand kit is my carry gun (USP Compact .45) + AAC Evo .45, Surefire E2D LED Defender, and cell phone. If, like me, you are a nomad who demands the maximum versatility from the fewest weapons, then you're salivating over the idea of an ACR in .300 BLK, SBR, SD, as your defensive long gun.
Exactly!! Excellent Point (S)
 

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http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
"Long story short, we proceeded to shoot several rounds and they all penetrated all 12 sheets and exited." 9mm/.40/.45 ACP etcc..
"Notice that the XM-193(5.56) is tumbling. We pulled the sixth sheet and that's about where it first tumbled.



http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
"I then shot a load of Winchester 2 3/4", #1 Buck, 16 pellets.
This round penetrated 6 sheets and bounced off the 7th. "

5.56 penetrates less than .22 lr /9mm/.40S&W/.45 ACP and #4 to 00 buck. That said I use a .45 handgun as my primary home defense tool.

 

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The "Box of Truth" article is very poorly written (not clear at all), but upon deciphering, it does make my point in a dramatic way (and I believe differently than you interpret, Solidius). To quote the summary he states under "Lesson's Learned" on page 2 of the Shotgun iteration:

1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards [of dry-wall]. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.
In fact, the .223 full metal jacket round he is using not only fully penetrated and exited 12 sheets of dry-wall, but also was unfazed by 12 sheets of pine board. In both media, as he states, it began to tumble around the sixth board, carving an expanded hole through the remaining six, exactly as intended in the design of the bullet. (Penetrate cover, then tumble in the target.) Note also that the pistol hollowpoints expanded very little in drywall. Like the military BALL ammo, modern hollowpoints ARE intended to penetrate cover without undue damage (especially jacket separation or mushrooming) so that they can retain their line of flight and velocity until they interact with flesh or something like flesh. GDHP, HST, the older HydraShok, and others are specifically tested for their ability to get through inanimate barriers while retaining lethal velocity and remaining on target. Just because it's hollow-point doesn't mean it isn't designed to penetrate. It is.

Of the rounds he fired into the drywall box, only the .22 rimfire pistol and the shotgun using buck shot failed to penetrate all layers completely. And that's why I don't worry too much about penetration when it comes to a home-defense weapon. If you want to use a shotgun, do so, but understand that if you miss (or if a stray BB slips by your target), your child on the other side of the wall will be hit, and possibly killed. With a rifle, you just get that many more walls of pass-through. I like the idea of the .308 subsonic hollowpoint not because a wall will stop it but because a man will stop it. A mushrooming, low-velocity bullet designed to expend its energy in flesh hopefully will do so. A high velocity .223 BALL round, as illustrated in the Box experiment above, may not stop for much of anything. It may be carving sideways holes in the house next door before it comes to rest. Hence my recommendation of pistol rounds for home defense: If we're assuming all rounds penetrate walls (which they do), then pick a round which, if well aimed, presents the minimum of liability and the maximum of lethality.

And remember that the lesson to us is that any miss is a liability. Don't bloody miss.

(Behold, the lethality of all of these rounds after penetrating two sheets of drywall: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm, and note the sheer devastation wrought by the little 55 grain 5.56mm. As noted in the post-script below, there is a world of hurt in an exponent. )
***

P. S.: It is an interesting (and possibly not well-known) fact that full metal jacket rifle rounds (and possibly other bullet designs as well) have a velocity sweet spot, and the a distance sweet spot, of lethality. For instance, snipers acknowledge that rounds from a .50 BMG or .338 Lapua Magnum rifle, while still absolutely deadly at close range, do not produce the same devastation to flesh at close range that they do at extended range. The long, streamlined, spinning projectile, at extremely high velocity, tends to punch through its target almost before the bullet has "noticed." It is not until the bullet decelerates somewhat (into an indefinite window with a lower bound at the speed of sound) that it begins to demonstrate the "terminal ballistics" of which it is capable. At these lower velocities, impact with flesh is able to destabilize the projectile, at which point it becomes a substantially more devastating actor within the medium. A microcosm of this is demonstrated with the .223 round in the box above, as the first six sheets decelerate the bullet until it enters that "sweet spot," at which point its effects on subsequent sheets are dramatically improved. That even after beginning to tumble it continues to penetrate out the far side of the experiment's universe, so to speak, or to obliterate everything in its path as it did in the water-jug version of the Box, demonstrates the power of the square term in the kinetic energy equation.
 

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You know, that's a good point. Once the rifle round drops below the speed of sound or otherwise destabilizes, it decelerates rapidly and becomes ineffectual, so I imagine you're right. After eight or so feet of aerodynamic travel beyond the first two sheets, it probably loses a lot of potential. Still, I'm glad you posted the Box experiment. It clearly demonstrates the nastiness of the rifle's muzzle velocity, as well as makes the point that any firearm projectile is a more-than-deadly penetrator for home-defense purposes. I'd love to see the experiment with the wider sheet-rock spacing, if you can find it. The power of the more massive projectile to continue after penetration is worth researching. Like you, I loves me some .45 ACP, and I would trust it entirely to reach the target through any reasonable barrier, like wood or glass, or probably even thin metal.

(bpasky, I dare say at this point that you have enough information to make a good decision.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Actually this thread made me do two things.

1.) Make me feel better about keeping the ACR in the safe; knowing I have a 9mm pistol that is more than enough for (typical) home defense.

2.) Start saving for a suppressor for both my M&P pistol and ACR; I was liking AAC's new cans. The Ti-Rant 9S (I think it may fit in the safe attached) and the 762-SDN-6 (It just sounded like it was made for the ACR).
 

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as I understand this thread, all the projectiles talked about are FMJ or 00 buckshot. as I understand home defense rounds are fragmentation bullets and they disperse all there energy very quickly.
 
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