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Discussion Starter #1
I'm looking into getting body armor in the near future and I've been looking into the DKX Max iii plates. Does anybody have any knowledge on them, or any other Dyneema type plates?

I've been told that there are two kinds of Dyneema plates. Pure Dyneema and a mix. I was told that the pure Dyneema plates can't stop M193, because its moving too fast, is this true?
 

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I remember seeing a couple YouTube videos of guys shooting these with various AK47 and AR15s. They seemed to hold up pretty well. I think nutnfancy might have done the vid, I don't know.

I saw their shotshow vid too. They look impressive. I'd like to hear from forum members in the body armor industries first though.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I seen Nutnfancy's video and I seen Tim from the Military Arms Channel tested a Dyneema plate was well. I've been pretty impressed but what are the CONS? And thats what I'm looking for.
 

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body armor (like everything is a list of tradeoffs) - Good price, Good weight, Good protection. Choose any 2.

Your info is reversed-

HDPE (high-density polyethylene), Dyneema, etc plates are generally very light and do a great job against FMJ rounds, regardless of speed. So, they will most likely do just fine against M193 and similar.
But, they will usually not stop any bullet that has AP-ish characteristics, like M855. Most lightweight HDPE plates can be defeated by M855/ SS109.

Some steel plates, can stop the slower M855, but are defeated by the faster M193.

Ceramic can usually stop both, but are fragile. The best overall plates are usually a mix of materials- a thinner ceramic layer followed by compressed Dyneema, or similar. these are a little heavier (no where near as heavy as steel or full ceramic), but they are also usually very expensive.

You have to balance your budget, weight tolerance, and what likely threats you will face...

If you are training in a shoot house with guys shooting M855, the dyneema/HDPE plate is a poor choice for example.
 

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There's too much made about the supposed fragility of ceramics. People who say that ceramic plates are fragile need only observe some random "Joe" with his IOTV for 30 minutes. That should remove any doubt :) Even if you happened to abuse one of these plates to the point where it did crack, that doesn't make it suddenly useless. Even if a projectile directly hit this hypothetical crack, penetration would not be assured. Buy a good quality plate and carrier. Practice good armor stewardship. You will be fine.

M193 penetrates more "stuff", generally speaking, under 100 yards than M855 because it's moving faster. Both are difficult rounds to defeat, especially the former, and can burn right through plates that will stop 7.62 NATO.

When you are looking at armor, establish what your threat envelope truly is. In the US, stopping all manner of 5.56 and .223 rounds should be a paramount concern.

Buy the lightest ceramic plates you can afford
 

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There's too much made about the supposed fragility of ceramics. People who say that ceramic plates are fragile need only observe some random "Joe" with his IOTV for 30 minutes. That should remove any doubt :) Even if you happened to abuse one of these plates to the point where it did crack, that doesn't make it suddenly useless. Even if a projectile directly hit this hypothetical crack, penetration would not be assured. Buy a good quality plate and carrier. Practice good armor stewardship. You will be fine.

M193 penetrates more "stuff", generally speaking, under 100 yards than M855 because it's moving faster. Both are difficult rounds to defeat, especially the former, and can burn right through plates that will stop 7.62 NATO.

When you are looking at armor, establish what your threat envelope truly is. In the US, stopping all manner of 5.56 and .223 rounds should be a paramount concern.

Buy the lightest ceramic plates you can afford

Ceramic plates are fragile in the discussion of armor… as compared to HDPE or steel plates.

They are not fragile like you're wearing a dinner plate on your chest.

I agree ceramic plates with a decent backer or ceramic hybrid plates are the best overall choice.
 

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Ceramic plates are fragile in the discussion of armor… as compared to HDPE or steel plates.

They are not fragile like you're wearing a dinner plate on your chest.

I agree ceramic plates with a decent backer or ceramic hybrid plates are the best overall choice.
Have you ever broken or cracked a plate? How do plates crack/fail? What is your definition of fragile?

My point is that things that would cause a quality ceramic plate to not only crack, but crack to the point of failure, would destroy any other piece of kit too. If I skip a LTC 26225 level IV plate off the deck hard enough to crack it, that same level of force applied to a carbine would have similar results. Because something can fail if subjected to extreme force/abuse doesn't make it "fragile".

definitely not trying to stir the pot, but I hear so many people repeating this ceramic=crack dogma, when it's just recycled forum trash. Yes, ceramic plates can and do crack/break. You can break a steel or HDPE plate too. Will you ever crack/break one? Only if you try, and even then, it's not a certainty.

Alleged fragility of ceramic plates shouldn't be a deciding factor when considering civilian body armor
 

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I've seen one plate fail.... an old SAPI. Going through the mail, it must have been slammed. Been on 2 combat deployments, and saw tired guys dropping they OTV's and MTV's on the deck after a long day, falling, transporting, etc. Never a failure. A quality set is not as easy to break as they say, but not as durable as steel for obvious reasons.

Personally, this is what I did. I have ESAPI's. They are kept in a safe place. For training, I have PVC training plates that are the same weight & size. They won't break. Save the wear and tear for the real plates when they are actually needed.
 

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Have you ever broken or cracked a plate? How do plates crack/fail? What is your definition of fragile?

My point is that things that would cause a quality ceramic plate to not only crack, but crack to the point of failure, would destroy any other piece of kit too. If I skip a LTC 26225 level IV plate off the deck hard enough to crack it, that same level of force applied to a carbine would have similar results. Because something can fail if subjected to extreme force/abuse doesn't make it "fragile".

definitely not trying to stir the pot, but I hear so many people repeating this ceramic=crack dogma, when it's just recycled forum trash. Yes, ceramic plates can and do crack/break. You can break a steel or HDPE plate too. Will you ever crack/break one? Only if you try, and even then, it's not a certainty.

Alleged fragility of ceramic plates shouldn't be a deciding factor when considering civilian body armor
I have handled a number of cracked plates over the years - both noticeable cracks (visual/tactile) and invisible cracks (Xrayed). I have seen a ceramic plate crack from sliding out of a truck bed onto concrete (one in a million? who knows).

So, yes, in my experience, ceramic armor plates are more fragile than steel or HDPE ones. Is it "fragile" like a plate or a piece of wall tile? no, but that's not what we're talking about.

Throw an HDPE one in an oven and/or shoot it with anything close to AP and it can fail too… Shoot a steel one with a super high velocity round and it can fail...

Every ceramic plate manufacturer issues drop/crack warnings along with recommendations for periodic crack checks.

Is any and every crack an automatic failure? no. I've shot multiple ceramic plates that easily stopped rounds after an initial shot that cracked them.

I already said if you weigh the cost/benefit ceramic or ceramic hybrid plates are the best overall bet.

I appreciate the accusation of recycling forum trash, so in addition 45 will knock a man clean over and the shockwave from a 50 BMG round passing nearby will break bones… LOL.
 

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I appreciate the accusation of recycling forum trash, so in addition 45 will knock a man clean over and the shockwave from a 50 BMG round passing nearby will break bones… LOL.
It tears flesh....

I have shot a 7.62 AP ESAPI plate about 15 times in no carrier with a M1A using 150gr FMJ from approximately 10 meters and the plate completely delaminated, yet stopped every round.
 

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Ceramics are fragile in the sense that they can crack while steel doesn't really. That doesn't mean they break or can't take abuse. As Callmecolt mentioned we threw ours on the ground all the time. Not to mention what we did to ourselves while wearing them. I think you may be hard pressed to find someone that didn't drop kick or hit someone in a PC with something. You can't get a bunch of 20 somethings together then give them armor and think they wont act like 10 year olds. I don't care how professional they are supposed to be or how expensive you tell them it is. I regret nothing.

Bottom line is it's more than durable but it'll crack when steel wont, so it's less durable. It won't, on the other hand spall like steel. Without a coating the fragments from rounds hitting steel are definitely enough to kill you when propelled into your face. But ceramic will need to be replaced after multiple hits while steel will just needs to be recoated. If it were the end of the world and you weren't getting shot at by AP rounds, steel is the way to go. But since you can't predict what you'll be shot at anymore than you can predict being shot at ceramic seems better.

I personally prefer ceramic. It's lighter, can take more types of ammo than it's rated to usually and it's American. We're not cavemen, steel is for the commies.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
With the "U.N.-Nazi-Zombie-Jihadist-Ebola-Alien-Apocalypse" fastly approaching, I'm looking for what would have a better weight to stopping power ratio? The thing about ceramic that kind scares me is, when a bullet does hit it your left with hole with powder pouring out of it. My luck, a second round would find it's way to the same space. I know nothing is "bullet proof" and like most people I don't have a supply line and change out for new plates. In the worst case scenario, what would a true multi hit plate that doesn't make me any slower then what I have to be?
 

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With the "U.N.-Nazi-Zombie-Jihadist-Ebola-Alien-Apocalypse" fastly approaching, I'm looking for what would have a better weight to stopping power ratio? The thing about ceramic that kind scares me is, when a bullet does hit it your left with hole with powder pouring out of it. My luck, a second round would find it's way to the same space. I know nothing is "bullet proof" and like most people I don't have a supply line and change out for new plates. In the worst case scenario, what would a true multi hit plate that doesn't make me any slower then what I have to be?

if you're in the unfortunate position of taking rounds to your body, the minuscule chance of getting hit in the same exact spot twice (and it'll most likely be stopped again anyway) is the least of your worries..

Determine the most likely threat you'll face, look at armor in the appropriate NIJ level, balance weight with your budget and go for it.

There's almost no need for a level IV, and most people would be better-served (and carry less weight) with a good multi-hit level III. (unless you have gang members with a stockpile of AP .30-06 next door).
 

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With the "U.N.-Nazi-Zombie-Jihadist-Ebola-Alien-Apocalypse" fastly approaching, I'm looking for what would have a better weight to stopping power ratio? The thing about ceramic that kind scares me is, when a bullet does hit it your left with hole with powder pouring out of it. My luck, a second round would find it's way to the same space. I know nothing is "bullet proof" and like most people I don't have a supply line and change out for new plates. In the worst case scenario, what would a true multi hit plate that doesn't make me any slower then what I have to be?
I've seen tests where the same hole is hit 2-3 times without penetration. I've also seen test with bursts from a SAW and no penetration. I don't think it's something to worry about.

Also in my opinion if it's a SHTF scenario, in my opinion you're likely to be facing AP rounds. If it's the UN, that's what they use, that's what the Russians use, that's what the Chinese use, and if it's all over then the largest supplies of ammo will be the U.S. govt and that's what they use. Even most personal stock piles are penetrators. I would plan accordingly. Plus if the world really is over and you get shot up, the U.S. govt is also worlds largest horder of ceramic plates. I would liken buying steel plates for when the SHTF because most people have ball ammo to buying seat belts rated at 25mph because that the speed you drive most at.

Just my opinion.

Now if it's just for the bumps in the night or some L.A. or Ferguson style riots, I think you would be fine with steel. But then you can go back to the seat belt analogy.
 

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It's all about compromises when selecting armor. What is the best solution for the threats you face and how much money do you have?

Steel plates are better than no plates and if you want to be some real-life Mad Max, steel is probably the best option. You could probably repair the Rhino lining to a point or add some sort of supplemental spall protection. You would be improvising a new carrier too as they get chewed up pretty bad when they get shot.

if we are fantasizing about banging it out with the PLA, we don't fully know what the various 5.8x42mm loads do to armor. Based on what we think, it should be a real bummer.
 

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The steel core versions of 5.8 are reported to preform much like M855, however all versions are reported to cause through and through wounding, lacking any fragmentation.
 
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