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I have some more info that I will post later after a good meal.

Ken grabbed some good shots - here are the linked images:

Left Side:


Right side:


From below:



Credit goes to Ken from his site - he also has a few more pics to post.
 

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Some more SHOT ACR info from my notes:

MSRP - They are not concerned about the reaction on the net regarding the MSRP. Both folks I spoke with deflected the issue and pointed out the number of dealers placing large orders at SHOT.

Manufacturing - All major components will be made @ Remington as they have tooling, scale and experience that Bushmaster does not. Bushmaster will make a few of the smaller pieces as well as some smaller sub contractors. Of course Magpul will be making its components.

Remington vs. Bushmaster Version - Remington model will come with the modular rail whereas the Bushmaster will have either the plastic handguard or the solid rail. Personally, the plastic handguard and the modular rail are the best looking of the lot. At that Bushmaster booth, there was an ACR's finished in the A-TACS camo that looked very cool. (Did I say it looked cool, cuz it did) No info on if that will be an available finish. Bushmaster also indicated that Troy will be making new sights for the ACR by the time of its release.

Impressions - Overall fit and finish are very good. The selector switch was not as comfortable as I like and when moving it from Safe to Semi was more difficult than I prefer. The bushmaster rep said he has been getting that a lot and that they expect after market folks to make different switches in the future. The upper and lower receiver fit could be a little better, but overall the rifle is a sexy bitch. (as we all know)
 

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[quote author=Old School link=topic=46.msg236#msg236 date=1264088717]
Some more SHOT ACR info from my notes:

MSRP - They are not concerned about the reaction on the net regarding the MSRP. Both folks I spoke with deflected the issue and pointed out the number of dealers placing large orders at SHOT.
[/quote]

They may say that at SHOT, for obvious reasons. However, it doesn't matter how many dealers place orders, if the people do not buy them, those dealers and others will not be placing anymore orders. The one thing that the SCAR had goign for it that the ACR does not, is that SCAR is actually being fielded in battle buy SOCOM and a few other units. Granted we all know the price will come down in about another year or so.

Unfortunately, most dealers do not freaquent forums and are not aware that they will not be having a huge number of buyers clamoring for the ACR at $3K a pop. I could be wrong though. There are plenty of suckers out there living in their parent's basement with a spare $3k laying around who will buy it. Which is just fine with me, I will let them buy it and I will just shoot theirs at the range. 8)
 

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Unfortunately, most dealers do not frequent forums and are not aware that they will not be having a huge number of buyers clamoring for the ACR at $3K a pop
Yup, wait about a year, those dealers will be happy to move an ACR at the price of a wonkey old WASR (ok maybe not THAT bad but you catch my drift).
 

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Unfortunately, most dealers do not frequent forums and are not aware that they will not be having a huge number of buyers clamoring for the ACR at $3K a pop
I wouldn't say that most dealers do not frequent forums... Perhaps the less tech savvy ones, sure, but I have found industry folks to be quite aware of what's going on and of public opinion. By no means am I defending the MSRP, but we should also consider some possibilities:

1. Bushington/Remmaster may be using SHOT and the initial press release to gauge industry response for a particular $$ amount.

2. Magpul could have charged a ton of money for the ACR rights, this would directly reflect the MSRP. It seems like they built into that deal the business of being the sole supplier of sights, lowers, stocks and so forth, and as such they could be charging more for those plastic bits.

3. Bushington/Remmaster could be setting customer expectations on a high $$ price only to ship at a lower price. I have seen this happen before in other industries and be effective in helping to establish a cult following within the customer base. I.e. customer feels more ownership for having complaints addressed and is now a brand zealot. Also, there is the old sales trick of quoting a high price but then selling at the lower price to speed up buyer decision.

4. Development costs are what they are. Taking a product like this to market is complicated and largely a gamble. Prototyping a design as Magpul did is one thing, creating the pipeline for mass production and supporting that is an entirely different animal. Not to mention this is the arms industry so additional considerations regarding liability, ATF, State Dept., etc are all additional burdens. Its an expensive proposition to hire, tool up, create manufacturing process, documentation, a fulfillment process, warranty process, dealer/distributor contracts to hammer out, and train all the people to manage this.

5. Long term planning and future thinking around DOD contracts. Bushington/Remmaster wants very badly to make the ACR the weapon of the future for the US military. As such you need to make sure that your price point takes into account all the items in number 4 above, plus; negotiations, recalls, design changes, litigation and future proof themselves so they don't spend all their profits and then some trying to make ends meet. Sure, costs in some areas can go down over time (as manufacturing settles and streamlines), buying power typically does not. Not to mention this is the real world so shit happens, and its often costly.

Of course there's a million other possibilities to consider, we can only speculate at this point and time will tell what the facts are. Personally I am going to wait and see before I make villains out of Bushington/Remmaster. I am very much excited to see this platform come to market, especially if it does turn out to be the best weapon for our troops.

-JB
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Those are some excellent points old school. I am too hoping this is some kind of marketing strategy and the product ends up being cheaper. I am sure well see initial prices around the MSRP. But when things stabilize we'll prob start to see prices drop. for example when the LE6940 came out MSRP was about $2500 and actually sold for the most part for about $2000. Now MSRP is $1999 and sells for $1400. Its safe to say for the most part usually guns sale below MSRP, well most guns except for the SCAR! lol.

I've been waiting till the release of the ACR to see what the final price is going to be. If I can find one for no more than $2000 I will jump on it in a heart beat. If I cant I will go with the 6940, which I can actually have some practical use for it as a patrol rifle.
 

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ACR is a next gen rifle, like with anything next gen its gonna be expensive. Anyone who thought it was really $1500 is kidding themselves. The wait list and price gouge would be so gigantic if it was sold for $1500 that people would would bish to no end anyways
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
[quote author=ForTehNguyen link=topic=46.msg243#msg243 date=1264224106]
ACR is a next gen rifle, like with anything next gen its gonna be expensive. Anyone who thought it was really $1500 is kidding themselves. The wait list and price gouge would be so gigantic if it was sold for $1500 that people would would bish to no end anyways
[/quote] being "next gen" is no excuse for the high price. There are plenty of next gen rifles out there for around the $1500 price range, the XCR being one of them. May be if the ACR had a chromed lined barrel, 1 in 7" twist, and weighed less than the current 8.2 lbs, then may be it would be worth around $2000. But the way its currently being offered, I dont think even $2000 is fair. The only next ge rifle that has been over priced besides this one is the SCAR, and thats because FN is a much smaller company when it comes to the civilian/LE market, they are usually good only for military contract stuff.
 

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Here are some shots of the new Troy Stubbies BUIS. And a few other rifles.











































Notice how the charging handle is cut. He came up with it while trying to find a bottle opener for his beer. No lie.














 

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[quote author=ACRFan link=topic=46.msg237#msg237 date=1264091460]
[quote author=Old School link=topic=46.msg236#msg236 date=1264088717]
Some more SHOT ACR info from my notes:

MSRP - They are not concerned about the reaction on the net regarding the MSRP. Both folks I spoke with deflected the issue and pointed out the number of dealers placing large orders at SHOT.
[/quote]

They may say that at SHOT, for obvious reasons. However, it doesn't matter how many dealers place orders, if the people do not buy them, those dealers and others will not be placing anymore orders. The one thing that the SCAR had goign for it that the ACR does not, is that SCAR is actually being fielded in battle buy SOCOM and a few other units. Granted we all know the price will come down in about another year or so.

Unfortunately, most dealers do not freaquent forums and are not aware that they will not be having a huge number of buyers clamoring for the ACR at $3K a pop. I could be wrong though. There are plenty of suckers out there living in their parent's basement with a spare $3k laying around who will buy it. Which is just fine with me, I will let them buy it and I will just shoot theirs at the range. 8)
[/quote]

ARCFan, Not to pick a fight, and don't take this personal, but as a FFL let me give you my perspective (which is considerably different from yours).


First of all , I concur with Old SChool on all of his info. I heard pretty much the same things and feel the same way.

I spent a lot of time talking to the Freedom group folks about the ACR as well as Magpul. I know where the ACR is headed and it looks good...and profitable.

Much of what I read on other forums regarding the ACR has been just plain wrong . Not many will be sold for the MSRP, so I ignore that issue. The Masada design has always been heavy primarily from the quick barrel change capability ( sacrifice increased weight for modularity). BM/RemMPD have done a great job in bringing the concept to the market. The gun is a BIG inprovement over the original Masada prototypes unveiled at SHOT 2007 in Orlando. I had extensive hands-on time with those guns and these production guns are much better while preserving the original concept.


As an FFL , I spend a little time on various boards. My core group of paying customers do not. The guys on the boards discussing the ACR represent a miniscule percentage of the overall market. Most retail FFL's realize that. Most people that walk into gunshops are there to be educated before they purchase.

I have orders in place for a total of 8 BM ACR's ( Two for me, one of which will be used as a shooter on the range). Of the six for sale, if I get them by mid-March, all will be gone by April 1.
I can't imagine many dealers selling an ACR Enhanced (May delivery) for $3000+. The initial standard version will have a MSRP of $2675 and not many will be sold at that price either.
Maybe somebody will , but not anywhere around me. And just because I'm the first on the block to get them, I won't price gouge. BM M4gery's MSRP is $1200-1300. I have never sold one near that price, even last year.

Where I think you are off base, is thinking the kids living at home will buy them and who the target market contains. Once again, they will sell at nowhere near $3000 except maybe on gunpoker.com.
My basic customers for the ACR will be 40 YO + with a good job, nice house, no adult kids living at home (because they won't let them and they have higher expectations for the kids and the kids have enough pride not to live with their parents as adults-it's a sucess-oriented mindset). They don't spend time on any boards like a%&com because ,while the info is there, the childish,pettiness and nastiness of some of the comments repels most grown adults and they don't have the time to spend hours on the boards with guys trying to accumulate 15,000 posts in 5 years. Life's too short. They spend more time on my range ( and I with them) than they do online in forums. I used to have a tagline that read, "I would post more but I'm too busy shooting". These guys ( my customers) realize they are buying a nice gun designed by a very innovative and successful Magpul group and produced by the company that owns BM, Remington, RRA, DPMS, AAC, et al. They will realize they are buying a BM ACR and not a Keltec ACR so the $2250-2300 price for the standard version is acceptable. What I'm basically saying is, I'm selling the guns to people who appreciate them and can afford them.

At the moment I'm waiting a couple weeks for the firm prices to come from distributors and I'll probably order a couple more for stock in late February.

The biggest problem has come from Magpul "overhanging " the market for the original Masada and wishing for this MSRP of $1500. It was never very realistic considering the type of gun they wanted to produce.

With all that said, remember this thing is just beginning. If the ACR lives up to the possibilites it will be a raging commercial success. I'm looking forward to the next couple years.

Jay
 

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That sounds great. But if MSRP for the enhanced version is close to $3k, what is the dealer pricing? my understanding from FFL friends and having worked at one gun shop when I was much younger, is there is not much markup in firearms. Anywhere from $25 - $50 on new guns. Is this the case? If so, then a $3000 rifle will cost the dealer $2950 - $2975. Even if the dealer get's it for $100 below MSRP, then that is still a $2900 rifle. OUCH. And in my opinion, the standard version is bunk. One of the things that made the ACR so popular was the folding LOP stock.

So as an honest dealer, since you apear to be one of the good dealers and doesn't price gouge, and everyone expects you to make some kind of a profit, what is the dealer pricing from BM. Nobody knows who you really are and what your FFL # is, so neither will BM if you tell.

Also, this wilkl help us buyers know how good of a deal we might be getting when we buy.
 

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The quoted dealer price for the March release Standard version was quoted as $2175 and $2675 MSRP $3000+) for the May delivery enhanced version.

With that said by the end of last week at SHOT , I was given other pricing that was a little lower. Did they revise the prices down or was I mistakenly given distributor pricing ? I don't know yet.
My distributors don't have the guns listed in their online catalogs yet.

I have ordered from three different sources (including direct from Bushmaster) and I am very curious to see how their prices compare. I expect to pay a little more from Bushmaster but at least I'll have some in stock.

Typically on a gun like this my markup will be maybe $100-150. Once distributors get these guns and allocate them the fun will begin. I promise you will see some high prices initially. Once supply catches up later this year, I expect the price for the basic version in a competitive market area ( SE Texas in my case) to be $2150-2200.


Another example, take the SCAR, they are scarce and are allocated to larger FN stocking dealers consequetly those dealers may only get a couple a year (or one) to sell and they mark them up $1000-1200.
FN stocking dealer price is maybe $2300 and I see retail from big traveling shops at gun shows of $3400+. I can't blame them in that case.

Bushmaster on the other hand wants to avoid that scenario. They want to get as many quality guns out the door to as many dealers as possible to quash the price-gouging.

J
 

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omd: $2150-2200.
Now that's reasonable. The way I look at it is fairly mathematical:

take a piston AR, the average price for one of those being $1800 or so, then add a few improvements. $350-400 for the improvements doesn't seem all that bad. I wish they had at least given the basic version a CTR stock or something similar but I can live without it provided the standard stock isn't too long for my short little arms. Will the CTR be available for the ACR down the road?

A 1 in 7" twist barrel would have been nice as well but I can live without it, from what I gather 1:9" will stabilize a 55-69gr round pretty well. Any info on why they went with 1:9"?

And I agree with your opinion of AR15.com, the rules are far too slack there, pottymouths and immaturity galore.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
[quote author=Hunerd Proof 1371 link=topic=46.msg263#msg263 date=1264735254]
omd: $2150-2200.
Now that's reasonable. The way I look at it is fairly mathematical:

take a piston AR, the average price for one of those being $1800 or so, then add a few improvements. $350-400 for the improvements doesn't seem all that bad. I wish they had at least given the basic version a CTR stock or something similar but I can live without it provided the standard stock isn't too long for my short little arms. Will the CTR be available for the ACR down the road?

A 1 in 7" twist barrel would have been nice as well but I can live without it, from what I gather 1:9" will stabilize a 55-69gr round pretty well. Any info on why they went with 1:9"?

And I agree with your opinion of AR15.com, the rules are far too slack there, pottymouths and immaturity galore.
[/quote] I am sure the reason they went with the 1/9 is to save $ on tooling. Their rifleling boring machine is already tooled for their M4 barreled AR's in 1/9, i am sure they use the same machines for the ACR.

Just a thought, is it really all that hard to make it 1/7?? I mean, I am no machinist, but if its some kind of lathe that does the rifling, couldnt they just dial in the numbers and make it 1/7 instead???? well I dont know, for all we know its probably more complicated than that.

perhaps a more knowledgeable member in the field of gun manufacturing could shed some light on that.
 

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I fail to see as to why many are getting their undies in a bunch about the ACR barrels. I'm sure we are going to also get an earful about crappy trigger pull when it does come out.

Did everyone forget that it uses AR barrels and other parts? Unlike the SCAR with its unique barrel and gas block, it won't be long before vendors offer barrels of choices for the ACR.

After the initial batches or two the ACR will come down and hover above the 2k range. The SCAR will drop to just above that.
 

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Without getting into some really long answers detailing some lengthy discussions.......

I pretty much agree that the real issue of the 1n9" barrels is the issue of tooling. Freedom group guys party line was that most LE orgs still shoot the cheapest ammo (55gr) so hence the 1n9". Yeah okay, I said and he's right but what the orthodoxy of the 223 universe doesn't know is that 55gr bullets can be shot in some pretty good groups out to 300m especially in shorter <16" barrels. Done it, seen it, etc.
But it still comes back to to cheaper cost of producing the barrels.

I think the ACR cost will be okay in the long run considering the SCAR price and its lack of availability and , I was told, The HK M556A1 (semi 416) will be available in Feb-March also. Retail around $3000.

As for a crappy trigger pull, ;) the ACR FCG is a M-16 FCG......sooooo..... you can easily tune the hammer, trigger, disconnect just as with an AR-15 !!!!!!!!! ;D Outstanding! I'm ordering some David Tubb's Superior Shooting spring kits just for the new ACR's. In about 2 hours, you can have a perfect setup by tuning and polishing the sear surfaces without changing any sear geometry. To top it off ,I use Brownell's action lube plus grease. Gives about a 4 lb clean single stage break with no takeup or creep.
I don't see why you could not use other after market FCG's if you used the BM factory pins.
One of Magpul's Masada criteria has always been to use the M-16 FCG parts.

Magpul reps told me, and their 2010 catalog shows some of the parts they will sell this year.
Included are the folding/collapsible stock, fixed stock, PRS ACR stock, handguards, lowers with interchangable grips, etc. And most of all, I sure hope Magpul has a fix for the UNergonomic standard OEM selector lever. It's in a strange place. It reminds me of some of the early MP-5 selectors.

As for the barrels, BM told me they will offer many combos once the ACR gets launched.
1n7" twists, 10.5",14.5",16", 18" SPR with various AAC suppressor mounts. Looks like the Freedom Group is one big happy family. ;)
BM reps told me that barrel assemblies will be in the $300-350 range, much less than a complete upper the swap out. To me , the only downside, is that those barrels will need to be rezeroed unlike swapping out uppers.
NFA SBR's should be coming out to individuals by summer.
My hope that one day somebody like noveske will make some precesion ACR barrel units.

I really want a set of those RemingtonMPD modular rails too. I like them better than the BM tri-rail.

After seeing the new Surefire lights at SHOT , I can't wait the hang one on the ACR. With the new lights, an ATPIAL , an AAC can and some NV you will have a real tool. It will weigh as much as an M-1 Garand but it will be a slick , very modern piece. Since we humans are bigger and stronger than 70 years ago, we can handle the weight, can't we boys ?????? I personally need the exercise! I bet I have seen at least a 100 posts on other forums from whiny little bitches complaing about the weight. " But my AR only weighs 6 lbs !!!!" Gee, sounds like some guys have never carried much less shot a scoped deer rifle !

The barrels ARE AR-15 barrels but the gas piston assembly, barrel extension and or barrel lock-up and lever must be added. They are not that big a deal to make but those components may be cost prohibitive for a custom barrel maker to get into the market at this stage.

Once again, my standard line, this ACR thing is just beginning.
Take a deep breath, Be patient and the journey will be a lot more fun.

I remember how excited I was in my younger days when some lady made some Tiger Stripe cloth stock and handguard covers for M-16A1's. It was my first accessory for my AR and it was years before any other neat stuff came out. It will take years for the ACR market to mature and expand. The quicker ACR's sell, the more options we will have.

Jay
 
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