8.2 LBS!, 1 IN 9" Twist rate barrel! WTF! sorry for my rant, but this rifle is not worth the $2600+. Now were did the ACR gain a whole pound? It doesnt make sence either that the base weighs the same as the enhanced version with all the rails.
ACR got FAT
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My thoughts exactly. At 7lbs and $2000 it was an attractive offer, not so sure if Bushmaster will be getting any of my money now.
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Everybody knows 1x9 twist won't sell at $2600! This is a joke and I am frankly pissed!
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Man, Magpul should have just sucked it up and built their own production facility. The Masada was a pound lighter and half the price. I think Bushmaster just got greedy.
Lots has happened since the post above, almost a year has passed.
Prices are coming down, remember how much the SCARS were going for when they came out and for a long time after?
The one thing that remains true is Magpul simply did not have the resources to produce the weapon.
I became interested in assault type rifles in the early 1980's, we had quite a selection to chose from, mostly foreign. The assault weapon ban took care of that and AR's took over in popularity largely because of availability.
Now, I am so bored with the AR platform as good and as bad as it is. At least we have a this new rifle, for better or worse. For me I am happy to have a new choice.
Hopefully, Bushmaster/Remington will take this initial offering and build on it.
It will be fun to see what happens with the calibur conversions, accessories and advancments!
Prices are coming down, remember how much the SCARS were going for when they came out and for a long time after?
The one thing that remains true is Magpul simply did not have the resources to produce the weapon.
I became interested in assault type rifles in the early 1980's, we had quite a selection to chose from, mostly foreign. The assault weapon ban took care of that and AR's took over in popularity largely because of availability.
Now, I am so bored with the AR platform as good and as bad as it is. At least we have a this new rifle, for better or worse. For me I am happy to have a new choice.
Hopefully, Bushmaster/Remington will take this initial offering and build on it.
It will be fun to see what happens with the calibur conversions, accessories and advancments!
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from what i understand, the Masada was lightweight, but wasnt able to be mass produced reliably (easily?) so bushmaster/remington had to make changes, unfortunately the consequence was a significant weight gain
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138 Posts
...i don't understand this weight thing...i mean 7 or 8 or 9lbs?...what is this golf?..."i'm definitely not using the 9-iron for this one bob."...oh, i forgot it's the NEW amerika where if it weighs more than a remote, a cell phone, or a mcburger...its not worth my money...have you seen what they sell at wal-mart...cardboard to put your tv on?...i guess wood was to heavy......and don't get me started about "ergonomics"...what does that mean anyway?...what now we have to have our weapons all Feng shui'ed...so our chi is balanced and in sink with the oneness of the universe?...now take a second and ask this kid if he complains about the weight of his gun?.....hahaha...oh yea an AK weighs 9.5lbs with an empty mag....john-boy here has two loaded mags...
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Haha true. To much hitching about weight. A lot of people who havnt been in the military or even the infantry. Trust me the last thing you worry about when your humpin with that big ole pack is the weight of your weapon. After you take that pack off after about 20miles that weapon feels light!!!! I was a saw gunner. 17 lbs unloaded.
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saw gunners ftw! i was one too for 4 years, i miss that beast
but then again after they installed the picatinni mounts on the top the rifle never would hold zero again
but then again after they installed the picatinni mounts on the top the rifle never would hold zero again
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709 Posts
Ergonomics impacts speed, effectiveness, and the training learning curve. Non-issues for civilians, but for large LEO agencies, and the military good ergos are vital for several sound reasons.
As for weight, its all about intent. If you are a civilian bench shooter, weight is meaningless. If a person trains and takes part in more dynamic shooting weight is a huge factor. Fatigue makes a person a liability in terms of effectiveness and safety.
Tactical carbine classes are perfect examples. First time carbine class shooters usually bring guns that are overloaded with crap, and very heavy. As the class progresses stuff starts to get shed. You'll notice that "pencil" barrels and ultra light rail systems are hugely popular among tactical shooters.
Remington is stripping the ACR down to bare bones to military testing. They are doing everything to get the weight down. I am issued an M4 and M9, and would not want to increase in weapon weight. I feel the same way about the HK416, though the SCAR MK16 is a good weight, especially when compared to the M4A1
My ACR is on order so I am no expert on this particular rifle but I have owned guns since 1969 and I am sure I have more guns and experience than anyone else in my neighborhood.
So with that said, I am thinking that the weight of the ACR is in large part due to the multi-caliber requirements from 5.56 through 7.62 x 39 - like the mass of the bolt carrier for example.
What do you guys that have them think?
So with that said, I am thinking that the weight of the ACR is in large part due to the multi-caliber requirements from 5.56 through 7.62 x 39 - like the mass of the bolt carrier for example.
What do you guys that have them think?
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2,791 Posts
The mass of the bolt carrier and the trunnion where the barrel locks up is where alot of the weight is. So yes, I agree that the multi-caliber requirements did increase the overall weight.
I believe alot of the weight complaints of the system are due to balance. A thin profile barrel up front would have move the CG back to mid mag well, making it more balanced. When compared to most AR pattern rifles and the SCAR, the ACR is a little front heavy. Now take a heavy barrel AR like the Ruger SR556, that is front heavy!!
Personally, the weight of the ACR doesn't bother me. My only complaint would be wanting the CG move aft alittle bit which is do-able with a thinner barrel.
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138 Posts
...well said man...it's just that the preoccupation with the use of technology to augment or improve some of the shortcomings that come from cookie-cutter training and other things, IMO shouldn't replace or hinder human adaptability...many guys say this: john boyd, Musashi, sun tzu, the USMC staff that wrote warfighting, etc...
...as far as being "non-issues" for civi's...man, most of the good training in the military comes from civilians...for ex: the military times just came out with an article that says the USMC is going to start 3-gun training in quantico...red-dots...forward grips...stance...brazilian jujitsu...civilians...civilians...and then LE asks the military to train them...it actually takes a while for it to trickle down to the grunts... however the spec-ops communities stay up to date because most of the time they get their training straight from the private sector...
...i don't think i would want more weight added to the existing weapon systems either;that is, unless it is a compromise for better reliability, knockdown power, etc...
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709 Posts
That isn't the point. Civilians tend be an army of one, and can wrap themselves around any weapon they purchase for their hobby. With military and LEO, the weapon has to accommodate thousands or even millions, with the end goal being an effective fighting force with an advantage over adversaries, with short spool up times.
So when you essentially say the importance of ergos is overstated, and mock the concept, you are definitely thinking singular and myopic.
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709 Posts
Being multi caliber will always have a weight penalty. This is a given. However, this is not the ACR's problem. If this were the issue the ACR wouldn't be undercut in weight by the LMT MRP, XCR and SCAR.
The issue resides with the current ACR design itself.
Example: The hand-guard is one of the thickest and fattest in the industry because it has to accommodate the locking collar and QD barrel lever, which also add weight. The barrel is profile is massive, and it is unknown if this can be fixed because the ACR has a "piston on barrel" design like the HK416, LWRC, and MRP piston. What do all these guns have in common? HBAR's to add rigidity to the barrel to resist flex and POI shifts due to the violent movements of the short stroke piston
The ACR stock is also quite robust, and the upper in general is burly. All this adds weight.
Other multi-caliber weapons on the market are much more trim, which is what Remington is trying to achieve now for the military model
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138 Posts
…you’re right, if I had a limited budget, was influenced by corporate lobbying, and had to manufacture a user friendly light infantry weapon to accommodate: teenagers, middle-agers, women, men, 90 pounders, 240 pounders, 4ft 8ers, 6ft 11ers, Pashto speakers, people that wear glasses, various IQ levels , whiners about weight, and also be politically correct…
...I’d come up with a semi-cheap lowest common denominator…
...one size fits all...
...no child left behind kinda deal…
...maybe the highly ergonomic M4 with a very user friendly aluminum pipe to place your cheek on…perhaps a miniaturized ping-pong paddle for a bolt release, because everyone in the world plays ping-pong…i could also place most of the controls in odd places, so you have to take your hand off fire control every once in a while to wave at the locals… I’d also reroute the exhaust system back into the chamber, because who actually gets in the water nowadays or needs the extra weight of a reliable piston?...
...i think you mean standardization when you say ergo...but if not cool...i feel like we're trying to have a serious discussion about fashion...hahaaa
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